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A grade B grade

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Maudiis42

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Post 28 Jan 2015, 22:27

A grade B grade

please post what you think

What i'm expecting is that the 2 comps would be as follows

A grade - National Rules and style of games With the requirement being that you have been or planning to go too nats

B grade - Social game play. Rules relaxed to reflect the social elements and safety. with all terms stepped down.

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Azrael

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Post 28 Jan 2015, 22:40

Re: A grade B grade

Yep, I like it

As long as it's established from the get-go, the requirements of each.
There are also highly skilled people that don't fit either category though, and that's what has to be considered
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Maudiis42

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Post 28 Jan 2015, 22:57

Re: A grade B grade

if a player is good enough and has the site blessing then that will supersead the restriction I would guess.

but it is a start
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Post 29 Jan 2015, 09:25

Re: A grade B grade

How large is your league? Weve considered many times running and A and B grade comp. in the end we decided it was better to have one large league with a handicapping system in place. Results have proven very succesfully as we have had teams of all kinds of handicaps win since we started.
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Maudiis42

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Post 29 Jan 2015, 10:16

Re: A grade B grade

not sure how big this will be as if i'm assisting run the comp I was wondering what members wanted.
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Post 29 Jan 2015, 12:08

Re: A grade B grade

Generally we have about four teams of five in each grade.

Obviously this number can wax and wane.
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Post 29 Jan 2015, 17:50

Re: A grade B grade

There are people in our B-grade that will never want to play with A-grade players, since they like "dominating" and winning individually every game. Even if there was a handicap put in place, I think they would still refuse to play.

I would like to point out that about 50% of our member base are under 16 years old.
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Post 29 Jan 2015, 18:06

Re: A grade B grade

Ninja wrote:There are people in our B-grade that will never want to play with A-grade players, since they like "dominating" and winning individually every game. Even if there was a handicap put in place, I think they would still refuse to play.

I would like to point out that about 50% of our member base are under 16 years old.


The players that go in to pick on lesser players are not players you want around still, they end up killing off new players as they just get smashed....
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Post 29 Jan 2015, 20:07

Re: A grade B grade

Azrael wrote:There are also highly skilled people that don't fit either category though, and that's what has to be considered


What from Adelaide? Hah! :p


Agree with Beefys comment,just don't know how to deal with those players.
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Maudiis42

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Post 29 Jan 2015, 21:45

Re: A grade B grade

But in the end this is why we are looking at the 2 levels

a grade is full on and if you go into this one expect to be owned

B grade is the lets go have fun and social

you all make good points. tankyou
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Post 30 Jan 2015, 08:43

Re: A grade B grade

Maudiis42 wrote:But in the end this is why we are looking at the 2 levels

a grade is full on and if you go into this one expect to be owned

B grade is the lets go have fun and social

you all make good points. tankyou


It's hard for new players to have fun if they are being pounded by experienced good players. I would look to move up anyone that you feel is picking on new players and they will either get better themselves or leave but at least you have the chance to grow then. Just my 2 cents.
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Maudiis42

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Post 30 Jan 2015, 10:31

Re: A grade B grade

beefy wrote:It's hard for new players to have fun if they are being pounded by experienced good players. I would look to move up anyone that you feel is picking on new players and they will either get better themselves or leave but at least you have the chance to grow then. Just my 2 cents.


Thankyou Beefy that is a great idea
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Post 31 Jan 2015, 23:54

Re: A grade B grade

beefy wrote:I would look to move up anyone that you feel is picking on new players and they will either get better themselves or leave but at least you have the chance to grow then.


We had this guy in his 20s that was a former A grade/Senior league player playing B grade for a season or 2. He is now basically banned from B grade. Sure there could me more people that we ban/move up from the B grade, but don't forget you need players in the league to keep it running!

There is a fine line with 2 leagues moving players up and down, a couple seasons ago we moved too many people up and B grade suffered because of that decision.
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Maudiis42

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 00:22

Re: A grade B grade

ty ninja this helps what my thinking is about the 2 types
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Post 01 Feb 2015, 12:32

Re: A grade B grade

A grade is usually about 20 people and B grade sometimes as low as 16. Unfortunately we have a few players that cant make the commitment every week and often have multiple no-shows which results in people subbing, sometimes unfairly. I guess this could be overcome by eliminating subs completely and just having a blind score (average score minus 1 base or average minus 5%)

Currently there are maybe 2 or 3 people we could move from B to A and they would adapt quick enough to the gameplay but moving too many more people would drop the numbers too much. I cant see the harm in having 1 skilled player on each team (a captain as such) in B grade to give some kind of guidance to the teams and help out newer players. That being said if you remove all the skilled players then there's no need for skilled players...if that makes any sense...as there is no-one dominating the people still learning the ropes.

We have tried various handicapping systems but a lot of the time it just results in people gaming the system to obliterate in finals. One system I don't think we have tried properly is Zone 3's old handicapping system with the individual player handicapping just because we havn't been able to scale it to the scores achieved in our league...and we havn't been able to find all the details for it
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Maudiis42

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 12:43

Re: A grade B grade

nice moo def a idea to think about
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Gizmo

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 17:44

Re: A grade B grade

Ill look around, I may have what we used back in the old days for single player handicaps.
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Maudiis42

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Post 01 Feb 2015, 21:55

Re: A grade B grade

i remember a ranking system 5 to 1 and the teams could only have 1 or 2 level 5's and a team total
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Post 02 Feb 2015, 18:59

Re: A grade B grade

We had that and we also had a system where you were graded A - F....

A - Nats - -30%
B - -20%
C - -10%
D - +10%
E - +20%
F - New Player - +30%

The full teams scores were added up after the grading was done to give an overall score.
If a nats high team played badly, they were hit really hard.
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Ibo

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Post 03 Feb 2015, 09:56

Re: A grade B grade

Gizmo wrote:We had that and we also had a system where you were graded A - F....

A - Nats - -30%
B - -20%
C - -10%
D - +10%
E - +20%
F - New Player - +30%

The full teams scores were added up after the grading was done to give an overall score.
If a nats high team played badly, they were hit really hard.


There's a 20% swing between D and C grade. To me that's a pretty substantial amount for a small difference in skill.
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Maudiis42

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Post 03 Feb 2015, 11:41

Re: A grade B grade

That handy cap system is over 10+ years old. and I found it sucked to play as lower skilled nationals players had a huge disadvantage.

But all food for thought as to what we can do.
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Post 03 Feb 2015, 14:27

Re: A grade B grade

Gizmo wrote:We had that and we also had a system where you were graded A - F....

A - Nats - -30%
B - -20%
C - -10%
D - +10%
E - +20%
F - New Player - +30%

The full teams scores were added up after the grading was done to give an overall score.
If a nats high team played badly, they were hit really hard.


I recall there being more to it than that and we can disregard the whole nats factor and just base it entirely on the players score/skill regardless of them having attended or not
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Post 03 Feb 2015, 19:57

Re: A grade B grade

I've thought quite a bit on how to bring in new players with A/B grade's playing.. My only real idea was to run separate nights so we can encourage the newer/less skilled players to come learn to play and improve and then move up to more competitive play, saving them from being farmed/denied.


Here's an old doubles system we've used, i think it was from WA.
It could probably be modified for other comps, i have no idea where the old teams stuff is :o

GRADE POINTS

AAA-GRADE 6
A-GRADE 5
BB-GRADE 5
B-GRADE 4
C-GRADE 3
D-GRADE 2
E-GRADE 1
G-GRADE 0

# OF A-GRADE PLAYERS / EXTRA POINTS
1 0
2 1

TOTAL POINTS / HANDICAP
13 75%
12 80%
11 85%
10 90%
9 95%
8 100%
7 105%
6 110%
5 115%
4 120%
3 125%
2 130%
1 135%
0 140%


I see issues with handicaps as it is hard to fairly grade everyone without stats..(something we never have and newer players can be wild cards). You can still end up having stacked teams destroy people they just don't get a prize for it (or they might :p).. I suppose having caps on 'A+' players or a limit of team points could help with that.
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Post 03 Feb 2015, 20:29

Re: A grade B grade

From my admittedly limited experience, handicapping can work quite well where the players and teams are of roughly similar levels (which I guess means most have at least played some level of competition before). Handicapping helps balance things out and keeps the competition tighter and hence more interesting.

Where is doesn't work so well is if the teams aren't kept somewhat balanced in the first place, for example a strong Nats level team or a team of all novices. When you get extreme handicap differences, it means the only way a strong team can beat a weak team is to "sit" on the weak team to make sure they score as little as possible (minimising the value of the handicap). Obviously this isn't much fun for the novices, and probably not for the strong team either.
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Post 07 Feb 2015, 19:35

Re: A grade B grade

Auto-Handicapping is built in to the tournament manager we use, if we decide one day to go down the handicapping road we can simply use that as it adjusts after every week of games per individual player.
There are many people in our league 'comfortable' with not improving and really playing competitively I think if we were to mix the group it would kill off quite a few players who are doing it for fun, there is a huge social aspect to our league night to with many A/B players playing Magic/Pokemon during their breaks with one another so making it over two days wouldn't work in that instance either without severe losses.
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