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Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

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Post 07 Sep 2014, 21:51

Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

So now that Worlds has come and gone, a lot of people have had a chance to try a new competitive format; which has resulted in a lot of debate whether Nationals should be adjusted, or stay the same.

In the interest of fostering such productive discussion, I've made this thread.


So, what does everyone think?
2shots/sec. is good, or 1sps is the way to go?
Did you find stuns were good, or just created annoying tactics to get ahead?
Should events be changed to reflect Worlds better?

My personal opinion is that Nationals Teams is a great format, and should stay as is - the Worlds Solos format is also extremely good, and I think we should use the Worlds Solo settings for Nationals.
The Worlds Solos format includes stuns, and one shot per second.
However, someone also pointed out to me that people might not be too happy having to learn two sets of timing...

Team Elimination was also extremely fun, and someone's raised the idea of making triples into a triples team elim, or replacing triples altogether... what are peoples thoughts on that?
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Post 09 Sep 2014, 11:04

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

We need a team elimination event at Nationals if we want to compete at a World's level. My suggestion would be 3 x 5man teams on World's settings (these settings are unlikely to change at World's I'm told). Make your own team (encourage teams made from different states), and run it like a side event. It would probably add an extra day to Nationals without removing another event (people have suggested removing doubles in place of it).

I like 1sps. I feel that it adds complexity and skill to the game as well as speeding the game itself up.

Stuns were annoying, compounded by an invulnerability period lasting over 1sec. I’m sure at one point we have all put a shot on someone for a kill, only to find that you have stunned them, and they have then ran into your base or around a corner with the invulnerability shield.

If stuns were to be used, I would recommend removing invulnerability and disallowing stunned players to enter the base when ‘base rules’ are in effect.
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Post 09 Sep 2014, 17:36

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

Captain Vegetable wrote:It would probably add an extra day to Nationals without removing another event (people have suggested removing doubles in place of it).

I'm glad our Nats isn't as short as it is often is in other countries, but I think we're reached (and maybe even exceeded) the practical limit here in Aus. By the time you add in some training time, you're already talking well over a week. Adding another day is a bridge too far! Personally I wouldn't like to see doubles removed, I think triples is a smaller loss. One problem would be time - doubles or triples takes a lot less time than a team elim event, especially if you run it where everybody plays everybody with the number of teams we usually have.

I like 1sps. I feel that it adds complexity and skill to the game as well as speeding the game itself up.

Agreed!

If stuns were to be used, I would recommend removing invulnerability and disallowing stunned players to enter the base when ‘base rules’ are in effect.

I think the invulnerability period needs to be reduced to something under 1 sec, although I know now there are valid reasons for not setting it to zero. However I have to say you're missing the whole point of stuns if you want them treated the same as "mini-deacts", ie. no crossing base lines. The whole point of stuns is that you can move as though you are still active. (Although I agree you should be able to be tagged again sooner.) Defenders either need to deact attackers cleanly in the first place, or finish the attacker off if they keep moving in.
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Post 10 Sep 2014, 11:18

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

what uppppp

so here is my view

stun invulnerability only really worked for LOR everything else it was just annoying. (side note LOR 3sec stuns 100% the way to go was way better)

i think our team comp should be unchanged as per shot rate. as for stuns... im undecided.

i would like to see at least one of the side events played on the worlds format

as for removing a event in favor of team elimination. i would be all for that. it has to be played with stuns. i would say either doubles or tripples would have to go in order to get it.
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Post 11 Sep 2014, 01:32

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

I love 1sps. It really increases the skill level of the game.. I ran our social night on Monday, played a few games and 2sps was just like double tag, such easy mode.

As for stun invun... On our packs stuns are nothing like we played at worlds.
Our (older) stuns shortly flash 'rainbow' on shoulders/phasor.. and can then be tagged.. with our stuns on 1sps you can fire repetitively and get a stun stun kill. Perhaps that means we actually have no real 'invun' period, who knows.
The newer ones will go rainbow and then the back/front start flashing the packs colour when 'vulnerable' but for whatever reason there was a longer '1 and a bit second' invun period.. Which was just annoying and made the game far more random.

Thinking about team elim.. It was fun and i'd like to play a mixed team event at nats.. But it's still a slow boring game type in my opinion.
Maybe we'd look into rewarding more aggressive play maybe with half scores for eliminated players or something similar.
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Post 11 Sep 2014, 11:27

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

LingLing wrote:
As for stun invun... On our packs stuns are nothing like we played at worlds.
Our (older) stuns shortly flash 'rainbow' on shoulders/phasor.. and can then be tagged.. with our stuns on 1sps you can fire repetitively and get a stun stun kill. Perhaps that means we actually have no real 'invun' period, who knows.
The newer ones will go rainbow and then the back/front start flashing the packs colour when 'vulnerable' but for whatever reason there was a longer '1 and a bit second' invun period.. Which was just annoying and made the game far more random.



im fairly sure this is a pack setting fix. might have to get the updated settings file :)
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Post 12 Sep 2014, 16:27

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

I really did not enjoy Team Elim... such a slow boring game of who can camp best for 90% of the time and then go smash out the most kills... I much prefer doubles and trips. In saying that, like someone else suggested, perhaps try a trips elim at nats one year?

Much prefer our regular nats format compared to worlds, but that might have a lot to do with its the far more familiar one that we all know and have played for so long. Might cry a little if nats was swapped to worlds format :p
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Post 12 Sep 2014, 19:27

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

LingLing wrote:Thinking about team elim.. It was fun and i'd like to play a mixed team event at nats.. But it's still a slow boring game type in my opinion.
Maybe we'd look into rewarding more aggressive play maybe with half scores for eliminated players or something similar.

Agree, I'd definitely be more keen on playing with the half scores as opposed to getting no score and would like to have the chance be in a mixed team. I wouldn't mind us scrapping triples to replace it, would rather keep doubles.


I'd prefer to keep our current format for teams, solos and doubles, and have the worlds settings just for team elim (and lor of course).
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Post 23 Sep 2014, 16:33

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

We had League last night and we put it to the 3-4 teams that usually go to Nats from here ..... 100% vote to not change the Nats settings.
The guys really liked the differences in the game for LOr and Team Elim.

But they all felt that the Nats game we have is the best of the best.
A Fast furious and athletic, action based game that flows and is by far the best.

Being on the Worlds Counsil and occasionally a backboard for Nats - I have to advise the Worlds Council of what you guys consider to be the best for the Worlds Game - so if you have opinions on the Worlds game - please contact me and let me know.
I will post in here if any changes are being considered and ask for your feedback.
If you want to chat one to one I can do that on phone, via email or at Nats if you wish talk there.
As always constructive criticism and suggestions welcome - we learn through innovation and suggestion!

As for myself and a personal opinion on the Nats version of the game - I remain the same as many others - I like 1sps for some games but not our Nats.
There are sites that have played and will be playing the Worlds Format (We played a season of it.) and they will get something out of it.

LOR - is an awesome game for 1sps (1 Shot Per Second) as is Team Elim.
And I have seen directly how this can transfer into the Worlds game - using your 1sps - stuns and Dodging in a Main Comp game.

However I would argue that whilst that dodging and 1sps ids great for LOR and Elim the real skill of cracking bases at a pace ... Tag base tag opposition Tag the base - defend yourself etc etc .... at 2sps is more exhilarating to play and also to watch.

Skill in this game can be seen from many perspectives - I personally will not accept the statement that argues there is more skill in 1sps for main comp games, this is not my personal point of view. I know some will disagree - thus we are all different.
I see it as a skill to be able to defend yourself and take the base .... at 2sps ....
Is it spamming .... no I do not believe so - Spamming being a rapid non stop firing of the laser to stop someone from re energising or never getting a chance to come up, with only 45 shots before yo have to reload you wont waste your shots that way - sure new users will but serious players wont, it just doesn't work at 2sps - yes at 4 sps its spamming.

Progression - at any site I have been to the standard game is 2sps for the main games - so a progression from that "Regular" game to League or Nats is the inclusion of 2sps and now Reloads - Loss of Points - Denial - working as a team and a faster paced game - not as one of the Junior League guys said here, when I introduced worlds format for junior league.
"Why do we have to play so slow for Comp?"
They saw it as backward step. Main reason they want to get to League etc is to get to Nats and an action based game.

Slower games are great - but mainly for fun.

All in all we have a great Nats two countries playing in in it and many more teams involved in it than any other country.
The US has stated they will never just accept a change to 2sps for Worlds - it would have to be argued and council voted on to change.
This was the case back in 2008/9 when the council voted against having 2sps
Will it always remain this way ? Who knows. Maybe one day there will be more people on the council that want 2sps - and yes some people will say - as has been said before ...
"If you change it we wont go"

I would argue that this is a fine position to have - indeed at least it is a position and well stated - it is good they stand by what they want.

Is not our standing that our game is ... well our game ?
Why should we change our game to 1sps and stuns to match Worlds - which is a .... a different game?

** Should we aspire to be playing a game that is the Worlds Game - I would argue yes of course we should ....

Should we give up our own game to do it .... nope.

**Should we train to play Worlds - (which comes along every tow to three years) ...

Yes we should, but not by giving up what we already know is a great format that we already have, but as a side by side game.

We play Leagues, State comps and a Nats - with some pre nats and other comps .... each and every year, other countries don't play anywhere near as many comps with anywhere near as many players every year as what we do .....


Why is not our game accepted as the Worlds Format ?



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Post 24 Sep 2014, 14:19

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

I would like to see the worlds format introduced.

It is of my opinion that the worlds format has a higher skill cap.
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Post 25 Sep 2014, 00:05

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

Ibo wrote: It is of my opinion that the worlds format has a higher skill cap.


There is no doubt in my mind, that the worlds format has more to learn, and more to master than the current Australian format.
This requires a higher level of skill to master, and therefore at the top level, potentially makes for a better game.

Having said that, I believe that the reason our nationals has seen so much success and such a high level of participation is because the current format is easy to pick up, but hard to really master. This makes it possible for new players, or new teams, or new site to join the competition, without being made to look like total fools.

I would hate to see our nationals end as an elitist competition, with only a handful of teams...
- Laserforce SM5 is a much more complex game than ours, and they have traditionally got 4-5 teams to their nationals. This year was cancelled for lack of interest from what I hear...
- US nationals (running similar rules to worlds) had a total of 5 teams last event i believe...

I think the key to growing laser tag as a 'sport' in the long term (and raising the standard of play) is through increased participation at all levels (Site, State, National, International).
Changing the game format might raise the standard of play in the short term, however I fear it may cause a drop in participation, and a drop in over all quality with time.

Just my 2c
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Post 25 Sep 2014, 16:43

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

I don't see 1sps as a slow paced game, when you only have 1 sps you know you tags have to count and there's actually time to quickly move/take a position when you know an opponent has missed as shot on you.

My only real complaint with the worlds format (as we played it) is the stun invun and entering bases on a stun (invun). I think that entering bases stunned would be fine if they player would cop a stun/deac for being tagged.
When you tag somebody who's 'active' they should go down.. It would've sped the game up; Imagine you're attacking (or defending) a base.. You tag somebody and then tag their team mate coming in (or tag the base if attacking).. It doesn't leave you waiting a to put another shot on the first player only to get tagged by their teammate because they were invun and didn't go down.

I completely agree with Joel's 2c's..
The worlds format definitely takes more skill and brings up the level of the competition (imo at least).
But I don't see our player-base adapting to a sudden change and can see the numbers and competition dropping.

Also want to add in that stuns can potentially make competitive lasertag look like this (with the way's some people dodge them :p)..
http://youtu.be/dz_9tJFs9Po?t=43s
For somebody that has no concept of how it works at least.



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Post 30 Sep 2014, 06:04

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

Why don't you guys introduce the World's format/settings as a separate entity? A "for those want to take it to a different level" type of thing.
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Post 30 Sep 2014, 10:50

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

Bishamonten wrote:Why don't you guys introduce the World's format/settings as a separate entity? A "for those want to take it to a different level" type of thing.


Our player base isn't really large enough to be split between multiple events or competitions.. The cost of travel and amount of leave is something most people don't want to use up on laser chasies.
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Ginny

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Post 05 Oct 2014, 23:58

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

LingLing wrote:
Bishamonten wrote:Why don't you guys introduce the World's format/settings as a separate entity? A "for those want to take it to a different level" type of thing.


Our player base isn't really large enough to be split between multiple events or competitions.. The cost of travel and amount of leave is something most people don't want to use up on laser chasies.


i think maybe tripples being on the worlds format wouldnt be bad. but then its not like it is going to improve our play on the worlds settings just from one side event
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Post 04 Nov 2014, 22:16

Re: Event Opinions, Stuns vs No stuns and 1SPS

Hi All,

I agree with Doc (Post 23 Sep 2014, 16:33). Having played many formats, I think that all have merit and all require skill.

I think that people have difficulty seeing that each format requires a different set of skills that are required to be good at it. Some of the skills for different games overlap while others do not. Looking at the comps that I have been to (including one Worlds), the players with the most experience are typically the ones which do the best. If you immerse yourself in the format long enough then you can't do anything other than get better.

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