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POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Game

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Poll ended at 24 Sep 2018, 16:02

Would you like to Show the Team Scores During the Game ?

Yes
6
21%
No
23
79%
 
Total votes : 29
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Phoenix

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Post 19 Sep 2018, 16:02

POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Game

Gday to one and all.
Can we ask you to cast a vote ?
There is a discussion in the Worlds Forums for Showing Scores During the game.

Would you, the players in the game, like to see the team scores during the game ?
There are many points for and against, however we would like to have the general opinion.

Thank you.
... and so it begins ...
... perhaps after we enjoy a good drink!
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Drayke

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Post 19 Sep 2018, 16:20

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

This would completely change the game!

I think it would remove a LOT of the strategic aspects of the game, reading the game, counting bases etc, knowing which team is ahead and by how much etc.

There's a place for it, but I don't think it's in Teams.
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Kat

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Post 19 Sep 2018, 16:27

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Strong vote for no. This completely changes the game and takes away the element of strategy and reading the game.
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Ibo

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Post 19 Sep 2018, 16:50

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Doesn't work in the 3 team game, I do see merit in this in a 2 team game variant though.
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Mopar

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Post 19 Sep 2018, 20:38

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

After playing the EU Championships with this feature in use I was surprised that I enjoyed having this ability. How many sports out there do the players not know the score of the game until the end of the game? I'm a yes for this but not in favor for this to be used In a team elim format. Definitely using this feature can and will change the game alot more during the coarse of the game and could even produce closer game scores. You directly could not see the total team scores but the bar graph on the screen was what you could see so there was still some guess work involved in how far infront or behind you were. A yrs from me
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Post 20 Sep 2018, 00:16

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

A no from myself at this stage. If it shows a + / - for your team being in the lead and nothing else then yes.
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Darkomen

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Post 20 Sep 2018, 00:20

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Ibo wrote:Doesn't work in the 3 team game, I do see merit in this in a 2 team game variant though.


How does it differ?

in Comp i feel it adds a lot to the game. It makes it more dynamic and there are a lot more in game changes, if the captain stays on top of the situation (which many people failed to do in ZLTEC). I don't see why you should not see the real time situation in a game (as compared to any other sport where you always know the score). It is a big skill to adapt in game, on the fly and it adapts o ton of pressure on the captain and teams. I would really hope we use the tools we are given, it has not been shown previously due to lack of technical capability, but now we have that capability i really think we should utilize it.

And remember you don't see the absolute score, just bars giving a scaled view of the situation. In our view it allows the players to make better decisions with more infromation - increasing the level of the game.

I know I'm not from australia but just wanted to give some light on how it is thought of here and why we used it zltec with a surprisingly strong support afterwards.

To reflect on what Mopar said, how many have tried this on high level comp?
Last edited by Darkomen on 20 Sep 2018, 21:48, edited 1 time in total.
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marZ

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Post 20 Sep 2018, 00:24

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

I honestly don't think this is the right way but what do I know, I've only been to one national.

I would rather knowing my own score and my teams, that or a way just to know how far behind we really are in a game or if we're just ahead. Numbers would change how a game is played and take pressure off of the captain to be reading the game and understanding what is going on, but again, I only play defense from inside a base so what do I really know.
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Post 20 Sep 2018, 00:30

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Interestingly, the 1999 Nats at Box Hill had an in-game scoreboard! (Team totals only, with no base digit in the scoring to show base counts.) It seemed like a good idea at the time, and I remember being disappointed when it stopped working.

As others have said, what other team sport doesn't allow the teams to know the current score? (On the other hand, what other team sport has three teams per game!) Will it affect/change strategy as we know it? Absolutely! Will it have a "bad" effect? That I'm not so sure about.

Whenever this came up in the past, I said it was a good idea. But then I was never very good at reading the game, counting bases, etc.

I think the only real way this will be sensibly resolved is to play one or more comps (maybe pre-nats) and let people see how it works in practice.
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Post 20 Sep 2018, 07:08

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Bit of a hard no from me. I think the way you have to play differs greatly when you dont know the scores, It encourages a more active game for the full 12 minutes. Often a team can feel like they are falling out of it and this may spur them on to work harder. however if there were a score to see just how out of it they were they may decide that meh with 2 minuntes to play whats the point and this would hurt the quality of zone being played in the arena
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Post 20 Sep 2018, 21:29

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Hey Doc,

Is it possible to see how this plays one week in at League one week? I can't make my mind up. I can pros and cons.

I agree it will change the game, I'm just not sure whether I will like it or not.
 
PostThis post was deleted by Darkomen on 20 Sep 2018, 21:47.
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Post 20 Sep 2018, 21:51

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

doychi wrote:Hey Doc,

Is it possible to see how this plays one week in at League one week? I can't make my mind up. I can pros and cons.

I agree it will change the game, I'm just not sure whether I will like it or not.


I will see if we can .. to be honest I haven't looked at it ...
... and so it begins ...
... perhaps after we enjoy a good drink!
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Post 20 Sep 2018, 23:25

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Im a no unfortunately, while i can see the benefit on the media side , my experiences with the announcements of places and rough scores difference with laser force at league lends to the no. While i enjoyed the difference at the beginning with hearing for example yellow team 1st by more 3000 etc after a few years i didn't like the adjustment to how the game played with 3 teams, often 1 team would give up during game and give the game away to the team they preferred. we are thankful that it was turned off for finals and i got to experience it a few times without the arena announcements and quickly realised i prefer not having the information and playing relying on that small doubt to give it all you got that you may be wrong on where your placing that you could still be in with a chance. also prefer removing the doubt that the team clearly coming third didn't throw the game in the favour of the other team, helping reduce the potential to use that as an excuse by some players for a bad game. (some players will still accuse a team of this i know)

I know everything i have said has a counter argument , just having experienced knowing a scoring position in game i know my personal preference is no due to the third team in the arena.

im certainly open to idea of trailing it over time over some prenats and seeing what its all about on zone gear as im sure that may change my feeling on the experience, its hard to make a completely inform decision when i haven't played with this feature, which is a shame so fingers crossed we look at trailing in the future at prenats events.

urge people to at least be open to trailing it in the future as mopar said you may be surprised and like the change.

any my random thoughts for what they are worth.

thanks folks
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Post 20 Sep 2018, 23:46

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Let the minutes show that I, Snake, a non disgruntled member, agree with Simmy and Pain.. knowing the team score can alter the way people play.

It’s less strategic. No more counting bases, no more keeping track of what’s going on with your team. The guess work is gone.

If you know you’re loosing terribly, what’s to stop you handing the game to another team? I mean, it can currently be done but is less likely as people keep trying, not knowing for sure, how far behind they might be.
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Post 21 Sep 2018, 10:56

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Snake wrote:Let the minutes show that I, Snake, a non disgruntled member, agree with Simmy and Pain.. knowing the team score can alter the way people play.

It’s less strategic. No more counting bases, no more keeping track of what’s going on with your team. The guess work is gone.

If you know you’re loosing terribly, what’s to stop you handing the game to another team? I mean, it can currently be done but is less likely as people keep trying, not knowing for sure, how far behind they might be.
I have to agree with Snake + others for exactly these reasons.

In addition: As someone who made the transition over from conventional sports where you know the score as the game is ongoing to zone - The 3 teams and the not knowing your score till after the game is finished is honestly part of the magic that makes our game great. To compare it with Football would be doing both sports a disservice.

There's no such thing as sending in the second stringers or taking your foot off the pedal because you know you're blowing the other team out and can afford it, You're forced to play hard from whistle to whistle or risk losing the game and that's something that I feel if compromised would damage the allure of the game itself.

Anecdotal evidence: This year at Nats we dropped a win to Space Junk by 30 points, Would knowing the score going into the last 30 seconds have prompted me to go hunting for a couple extra tags to get us over the line as opposed to controlling my area? Maybe Would it have given the third team (Off to the top of my head, Bendigo or Hobart?) an opportunity to swing the game to whichever team they liked more by focusing the other Most Definitely

That's only one specific example but I think a pretty good one to understand the reasons why for the integrity of the game that the scores should remain off.

That said - I don't mind debate and if the opportunity was there to test it I would put my hand up, But those are my feelings on the subject.
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Post 21 Sep 2018, 18:06

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

My gut reaction is no - but I definitely would be interesting in seeing test games done.
The concept of itself is fine, and as Ibo said, maybe in a two team game - but with the 3-team factor, as a bunch of other people have said, creates a swaying of results based upon perception.

Could even lead to two teams colluding easier, to ensure better ascension runs, for instance.

If it was 3 on-parity teams, with no possibility of collusion - then yeah it'd probably be pretty cool, and add a different element to the game... but people are people. Seems super exploitable to me.
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Ibo

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Post 22 Sep 2018, 21:10

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Darkomen wrote:
Ibo wrote:Doesn't work in the 3 team game, I do see merit in this in a 2 team game variant though.


How does it differ?

in Comp i feel it adds a lot to the game. It makes it more dynamic and there are a lot more in game changes, if the captain stays on top of the situation (which many people failed to do in ZLTEC). I don't see why you should not see the real time situation in a game (as compared to any other sport where you always know the score). It is a big skill to adapt in game, on the fly and it adapts o ton of pressure on the captain and teams. I would really hope we use the tools we are given, it has not been shown previously due to lack of technical capability, but now we have that capability i really think we should utilize it.

And remember you don't see the absolute score, just bars giving a scaled view of the situation. In our view it allows the players to make better decisions with more infromation - increasing the level of the game.

I know I'm not from australia but just wanted to give some light on how it is thought of here and why we used it zltec with a surprisingly strong support afterwards.

To reflect on what Mopar said, how many have tried this on high level comp?


Actually, after giving it some thought i would be interesred in trialling it. I based my vote purely off how i thought it would affect the game but ive never actually seen it in practice.

Surely some sort of regional comp could trial? Im interested in how it would change the game.
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Post 22 Sep 2018, 23:03

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

it completely removes an entire skill set from the game. thats a no from me.
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Post 23 Sep 2018, 19:14

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Wolfie wrote:it completely removes an entire skill set from the game. thats a no from me.

It might also add a different type of strategic depth to the game, and could very possibly make the end of games more exciting.

I voted no, but the more i think about it the more I think its at least worth trying.
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Post 25 Sep 2018, 15:10

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Ibo wrote:It might also add a different type of strategic depth to the game, and could very possibly make the end of games more exciting.
I voted no, but the more i think about it the more I think its at least worth trying.

A default setting on Laserforce is to announce the difference between team scores ever 2ish minutes, eg "Yellow team is ahead by more than 5000" and then 2 minutes later "Whoa, blue team is behind by more than 9000". What do you know about those rankings? Without digging deeper onto how it calculated which team/scores to say, not much. But it does show how big the difference is and if you're "ahead by 500" then it's a super close game.
It also doesn't say anything in the last 2 minutes. I believe we no longer use it for our leagues (and never used it in any finals). It's effectiveness really depends on the format that you decide to display it and how much precise information is displayed, for example:

Darkomen wrote:And remember you don't see the absolute score, just bars giving a scaled view of the situation.

This hasn't been mentioned anywhere else. Knowing ROUGH bars or whatever would be very different than having the exact score. Think about having the 5x3 bars displayed in the arena without the numbers. Top team is always on 100%. The other team bars are their proportion of that bar.

BigRed wrote:In addition: As someone who made the transition over from conventional sports where you know the score as the game is ongoing to zone - The 3 teams and the not knowing your score till after the game is finished is honestly part of the magic that makes our game great. To compare it with Football would be doing both sports a disservice.

Ahhhh but here's the other thing that I use to compare Laser Tag to other sports - In practically no other sport are players constantly scoring points. Constantly having an effect on the scoreboard. THAT is another interesting thing about this game. The way I typically rationalise it is that in Ballsport there is literally exactly 2 people that are actually DOING anything in the game; The person with the ball, and the person stopping the person with the ball. It's a huge abstraction (and that's not even going down the path of stopping the person stopping the person stopping the ball [screening] and being in a position to get the ball [leading] and stopping the person that is going to get the ball [tagging]) but it's essentially true. The only person that can affect the scoreboard is the person with the ball. The shooter. We play this game as if everyone has the ball. You have to mark everyone at all times. Everyone is a threat. Once you've succeeded in putting your ball in one goal, you're less of a threat there, but unless you're tracking that, it's a massive risk to let them open.

Not having a scoreboard in a typical team game is fine - because you can count. Even a single player can't count their own personal score (and an interesting challenge is to count your exact kills/deaths/bases for a game and come out with your exact score).
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Post 27 Sep 2018, 15:15

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Thank you for the time guys.

29 people had a look at this and ... 23 NO - 79% with 6 - 21% YES ...

The discussion continues.
... and so it begins ...
... perhaps after we enjoy a good drink!
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Post 29 Sep 2018, 22:38

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

@Ibo... in OZ games are close a ton... if there was say a min left and you were down by a fraction. Would an elite strategy seeing the graph be dump and find the team in 1st and just smash them? This is why I am a hard NO. Teams should be able to regulate tactics through teamwork not seeing a graph. Although I dont think it will affect much it could determine a golden game strategy the last min or two, I believe. Maybe I am wrong though.
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Post 02 Oct 2018, 12:57

Re: POLL - 19 Sept. 18 - Show the Team Scores During the Ga

Thanks to everyone that took the time to have a say.
... and so it begins ...
... perhaps after we enjoy a good drink!

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